Onderwerp: Brexit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f13fbd02-477b-11e6-8d68-72e9211e86ab.html#axzz4EGsLdsUG

According to you, many countries are going better thanks to €, but the one you are citing doesn't belong to the euro.zone (Poland still has his own money). Could you tell me, how Poland is doing better compared to before?

Poland improved hugely, especially in terms of infrastructure [University buildings, schools, roads etc. all paid in 50-80% by EU], everywhere you go you see old or new buildings (re)built using EU funds.

our agriculture also got modernised

and I don't see your point with the fact that we're not using euro, what does it have to do with anything?

IMHO simply Poland is doing good because they can attract money being offshore Companies of Euro countries, with some benefits Extra EU doesn't have.

If you look how many Indians there are in the financial environments you can understand why EU need places like Poland

imho in all my racist point of view :)
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Poland private debt

Polandd public debt

It is a common error in the first step of mercantilistic aggression to believe that someone gives you "money for nothing".
Reality is that you are using debt, direct foregin investiments and selling productive properties (and capital from center europe gets better performances than it would get at his home, in other words you pay a bigger interest in money than a german does, so the german banks prefer to lend money to you!)

That's quite normal, and it lead to good improvement (for second world countries as poland was..).
If you do the same inside euro, well it becomes a tragedy... as facts of this recent years shows!

Without making a precedent of this, for once you are making some economic sense :P

Even Euro countries benefited from capital inflows in the pre-euro days (look at the case of Spain, for example). What happened after the Euro, however, was similar to the "sudden stop" episodes in emerging economies. The problems of these lending booms under fixed exchange rates are well understood from the repeated experiences of emerging economies, especially in Latin America. I guess the 2009-... crisis teaches us that the difference between the central economy and the peripheral one does not need to be as large as, say, USA-Argentina, to yield a similar result.

Still, UK never joined the euro (which makes the Polish case more relevant than the Italian one), nor was it part of EU periphery (which makes the Polish case less relevant), so there's a limit to what we can learn from others.

for once

I would like to understand when I didn't.... :D

Even Euro countries benefited from capital inflows in the pre-euro days (look at the case of Spain, for example)

to build up the condiction of a tragedy is not (imho) to benefit..
the inflows of capital is maybe useful for not industrialized countries, so maybe for ireland or portugal, surely not for italy or spain (and spain is a perfect example imho of unbelievable level of failure of any kind of medicine else than public spenditure.. but how much can it last?).

so there's a limit to what we can learn from others

here I agree.
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Our debts are more complicated than that. We improve thanks to our money and EU-money, we pay 20-30%, EU pays the rest.

The thing is that we have a lot of problems with our national health fund as well as reitrement programme...which basically seems impossible to be fulfilled for current generation of 20-40yo's...

We also attract foreign companies by allowing them low/no-tax bonuses which is killing our 'own' companies since they have to compete with bigger rivals on worse terms than them.

In fact Polish economy is pretty much broken, even if the general level of living improved in last decade.

ask yourself what can happen with a woldwide shock like lehmann br. was in 2008.
What damages can a suddens stop of credit can produce?

I ask it because of the clouds that we all see in Frankfurt sky..

You just don't like or even hate the EU and all you write is against it. If others write about good things or successes you just look for ways (cherry picking) to talk it down or ask for things you can find yourself, and would find yourself if you are really interested in the subject and to have a discussion. But no open discussion is possible, you made up your mind completely and everyone else is wrong, even if they are not. The fact that you use nuances very often of not at all just proves my point.

Not to forget you stand side by side in 'we' against 'them' with someone who really writes nothing else other then anti EU nonsense but blames the other guy for his one sided behavior .... That also proves my point of what your goal is.

It is not all bad. The countries you mention are having financial problems for many decades now. But now all is blamed on the EU. The world crisis, also EU, etc
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It's not about liking or not the euro/EU. I'm talking about facts. I will always consider someone's arguments, but that doesn't mean I won't question them back.
As for Poland, you didn't give any arguments to prove your assertions. But as el pupe and Don Enzo after him showed, Poland isn't doing better than the rest of the EU, it's doing less worse.

Of course Greece's financial problem began earlier. It should never have entered in the euro-zone, they weren't fulfilling the economic criteria, so they had to cheat (they didn't do it all by themselves, they got help from Goldman Sachs, see here).
If they were having financial problems, why weren't they solved with the euro. That was one of the promises, higher growth rate for everyone. It turns out to be a desaster.

That's what I mean, less worse is your way of looking at it. The glass is half full or half empty, depending of what fits best to a person view of the situation. Things should be changed, but that doesn't mean all is a failure as you claim it to be without nuances. And you only look for examples that proves your point, that's an easy way of having a non-discussion, if you want a real discussion, you would also accept other views that are also facts and not reject all because it doesn't fit your view.

As for Poland, you didn't give any arguments to prove your assertions. But as el pupe and Don Enzo after him showed, Poland isn't doing better than the rest of the EU, it's doing less worse.

Lol. I doubt el pupe knew the situation of Poland 10 years ago, I doubt he knows it today. Poland improved massively in last decade.

why charles is not ban yet whet repeateadly troling and attacking personaly to anyone who have a diferent opinion of him??

Fine, if Poland improved in the last decade. But tell me how it improved in the last decade. You know, give facts, make comparisions and show me that you are able to form an argument!
I'm still waiting, but until now, you didn't show anything but anathema...

First of all, the glass, that is half full or half empty , has in both cases the same amount of water.
But there's a difference between better and less worse.

You seem to be arguing more on the form, than giving arguments yourself. I'm sorry, but answer to someone with "blablabla..." is rather a sign of a non-discussion. That's how you answered to el pupe. That's a bit slim, don't you think?

average montly income



the amount of money spent on roads/railways



before joining EU Poland had ~200km of so called express roads

now there are ~1300km of them

before EU we had ~400km of highways, no we have ~1600km

not to mention, the new roads are of much higher quality

just some examples